Wayne Gretzky and Talent Acquisition?

Strange title for an article about talent acquisition isn’t it?  It is actually very fitting.

Wayne Gretzky holds or shares 61 NHL records.  They did not call him “The Great One” for nothing.  He is quoted as saying, “A good hockey player skates to the puck.  A great hockey player skates to where the puck is going.”  If you have that picture in mind you can see why he was so great.  He was continually skating to where the puck was going.  To skate to the puck you are always chasing rather than anticipating and making good plays.

The current hiring environment is like that too.  Most companies have for the last few years been continuing their same activities to find talent as though nothing were going on.  They did not see anything unusual happening, and tried to conduct their practices the way they always have.  In other words, they had been skating to the puck. 

It has only been in the last few months that an enormous number of companies have woke up to the fact that there are no candidates available for many of their needed positions.  And, many of those positions have now become what could be termed, critical positions when in the past they may have hardly been noticed.  The reason is that many of those positions are vacant so long that the lack of having the position filled is causing problems within the organization.  It may be at a department level, plant level, division level or even a corporate level. 

In addition to the problem now being noticed, companies are attempting to respond to the problem.  But, their response is in the same manner they have sought talent for many years and now with no results.  So, what are those efforts, why are they falling short and actually failing?

This is where skating to where the puck is going becomes important.  There are a number of effects that occurred from both the demographics of the country and all the organizational changes that have occurred due to re-engineering, re-structuring, downsizing, right-sizing, etc.

Demographically Baby Boomers (76 million) retired in massive quantities.  Historically, the following generation filled in all the positions that were left open because they had been mentored and there were plenty of people available.  In this case, the following generation or GenX only had 38 million people in total and that created a math problem.  In addition, that generation has not been mentored like the Baby Boomer generation had been.  Why?  In many cases, the person who would do the mentoring either saw what was happening (they would get let go as soon as the new person knew what they did) or there was no one to mentor them.  The end result was there were no qualified people for the positions.

Secondly and in addition to the demographic problem, many, many of the positions are now much different than they were before all the organizational changes took place.  When a department goes from 12 to 6 people, the 6 take on the responsibilities of the 6 who left.  They now have unique positions.  The person with the same title at a similar company may not do much of what that person is doing.  As a result, when the company goes to find another person like the unique one in their company with all the qualifications required, there may be no one with the qualifications. 

Thirdly, most companies have been drawing their talent from the pool of unemployed.  What a minute you say, there are 25 million unemployed therefore there are plenty to draw from.  That thinking too is skating to the puck not skating to where the puck is going.

That above statement is true, however within the 25 million, the group that is 25 years old and older with a four-year degree or greater, the unemployment rate at the end of December was 3.8 percent or about 1.9 million people.  Only about half who are seeking employment.  That percent is below what is considered zero unemployment.  And, most of the company job postings, internal recruiters and third party recruiters are searching in that very shallow, basically nonexistent pool.  One more place where the puck is going is that there are approximately 6 to 7.5 million open professional positions open competing for the 950,000. 

Yet, companies continue to do the same things day in and day out hoping something will happen so they find the person they want.  They have been skating to where the puck is not where it is going. 

How should this situation (by the way, this problem will be with us until at least the end of the decade) be handled successfully? 

Since our business is all about understanding the hiring environment, we saw this coming years ago (skating to where the puck is going).  Like a lot of “voices in the wilderness” our efforts to share that information with many companies went unheeded.  Typical responses were that they were not having any problems and if they do they will worry about it then (skating to the puck).

As the situation unfolded and was becoming more apparent, unfortunately the response was very similar, “Yes we are having some difficulties with some positions but it must be that type of position, our area of the country, or it is a temporary thing.  We will be alright as soon as things return to normal.”  Or, “We aren’t having any problems, we get 400-500 resumes for every job posting.”  We followed that up with, so how many qualified candidates did you find in all those resumes?  The response overwhelmingly is, “None”. 

Perhaps the most confusing response as this problem has blossomed has been after we offer, “Would you like to know what has caused this and a solution to help you with your situation so you are effective with your talent acquisition?”  "More importantly help to find the talent that will allow you to achieve your goals and objectives?"  The response many time has been, “No, we are happy with what we are doing and will continue to do it.”  This is tantamount to skating to the puck only when you get there the puck is gone and everyone is at the other end of the ice.

There are effective solutions.  Some companies need a lot of change and help.  Other companies need momentary or some help in some areas.  However, we have not spoken to too many companies that do not need some type of help in talent acquisition.

Again, some solutions can be found in a previous article, Disruptive Changes and Talent Acquisition or you can contact us at 919-435-6873, kvn.sutton@gmail.com.

Who is Helping Who?

Recently I read an article published by SHRM (Society for Human Resource Management). It is titled, Executive Brief: Differences in Employee Turnover Across Key Industries.

I was not so interested in the information about the key industries that can be found in the Bureau of Labor Statistics. What caught my attention was this excerpt:

“Loss of employee talent hinders the development of new products, disrupts client relationships and delays customer deliverables. These production delays, along with replacement costs of employee turnover, negatively affect overall business performance and success.”

“Vacant positions also cause a decline in overall productivity.4 Employees who remain with the organization are less productive and efficient while they assume the responsibilities of the vacant position in addition to their own job duties. Once a vacant position is filled with a new employee, those individuals are still contributing less to their primary job responsibilities—and, subsequently, to the organization overall—as a result of having to train the new hire.”

Wouldn’t this mean that a company in this situation is operating at a distinct disadvantage and they are putting their desired results of key objectives at risk?

I am sure that to many this is not news. What I found to be interesting is that while SHRM acknowledges this in this article, many HR professionals do not acknowledge this at all and in fact, will state they do not necessarily believe it. Many also will say it is not a problem for their organization even when company leaders have stated it is a problem.

The problem is further exacerbated when the same companies are not able to find the talent they need for these vacant positions that are causing these problems and additional ones they did not describe.

From experience I can tell you when this is a problem and you are responsible for results, it is of no comfort to feel there are no solutions being offered other than, “this is the way we have always done it”. The saddest part is that many companies continue to follow the same practices i.e., post jobs, use recruiters that do not consistently produce the results required, and yet expect better results.

As an example, I recently spoke to a VP, Engineering of a medium size company. As we talked, he quickly stated that they had been looking for a person to fill a critical position in his organization for one and a half years! I gently asked what steps had been taken to find this person and why did he believe the right person had not been found. He responded that they had posted the position and had used several contingent recruiting firms they have used over the years. They also had networked within their industry associations. He also felt one reason for the lack of success was they were located in an area of high employment and there was no one of that profession looking for a job.

I explained while he was on the right track, there was much more to his situation. I provided him with the facts of the hiring environment. He was amazed he had not heard that from anyone internal to their organization. He asked what solutions were available. Once he heard the solutions and he asked me to contact his HR director. I did and she said they were not having any problems and she was very satisfied with their practices.

Either the VP, Engineering is out of touch or their HR department is afraid that someone will notice the emperor has no clothes. What I do know is the VP, Engineering had a tone of desperation in his voice for he stated similar problems that are described in the SHRM excerpt.

The ending of the story is, when true help is offered by understanding the challenges faced and detailing a practical, effective, proven solution, not soliciting a transaction and it is declined, there is little hope for help. In this case there was little hope for helping a hurting organization.

Currently, there are still too many companies where company leaders are saying they are in need of solutions but the support staff is denying them solutions. It is ironic because by denying the best solutions it only creates more doubt about the effectiveness of the current practices. At the same time, implementing the best solutions would increase confidence in effective problem solving especially when there is much less risk and much greater returns for the investment in the solutions over the current practices.

Disruptive Challenges and Talent Acquisition

Over the last few years there have been a number of disruptions that have created challenges for almost every company.  Those disruptions for some companies can be opportunities if recognized.  For other companies they stay problems and can be devastating.  For example:

·         From a macro level, the monetary and fiscal problems of the country, Europe and China have translated into problems for many if not all companies.

·         The high unemployment rate has fooled almost every company into believing there is a deep “pool” of talent just waiting for them to tap into.

·         The political unrest of medical insurance possibilities looming over the country is causing uncertainty and concern.

·         Unknown tax changes may further impede the growth of the economy and further delay any real recovery.

The list can go on as long as one would care to make it.  The one that we will focus on for this article is the high unemployment rate and the disruption in the hiring environment.

Until very recently, most companies have maintained a position that they are able to find the talent they need in any discipline with little trouble.  Their view on the surface made them conclude it is business as usual rather than warranting a change in strategies. 

It is no wonder that companies have believed this fairy tale for the following reasons:

·         There are at least 25 million unemployed people.  The conclusion is surely there are very qualified people in that group who can be hired for a needed position.

·         When most companies post a job somewhere (anywhere) they can receive on average 400-500 resumes.  The conclusion is what an opportunity to find a gem of an individual that will solve the problem of a particular open position.

·         The economy has not really recovered yet.  The conclusion is those who want to change positions for some reason will find the company they want to join with little trouble. 

With surface information that all seems logical, it is necessary as with most everything else to look below the surface and see what is really happening (false assumptions lead to false conclusions).  It is also important to draw sound conclusions from what is found. 

As we have written about in numerous articles, spoken in interviews, and disclosed to groups and individuals, we saw the current situation coming.  We gave warnings to anyone who would listen.  More importantly we provided sound strategies and solutions for companies to follow minimizing the disruption and negative impact of the current situation to their talent problems and thus, performance problems. 

So, what is the real problem?  While there may be 25 million unemployed or more, the number of professionals, those 25 years old and older with a four-year degree or greater is only 1.7 million of which approximately only 800,000 to 900,000 are actually seeking employment.  That is a percentage of unemployed in that group of only 3.6 percent.  That is below what is considered full employment.  To complete the picture those 800,000 to 900,000 are being competed for by 6 million to 7.5 million open positions.  That hardly provides good odds for any company seeking someone from that pool.

Most companies and search firms look in that pool of talent for those they need.  It is the only place they have a process to look.  Their technology tools and the practices of those responsible for recruiting within a company do not have the capabilities to seek talent anywhere else.  Job postings are only looked at by the unemployed and the vast majority of internal company recruiters and even the vast majority of third party recruiters seek their candidates from that pool.  When that pool has dried up, they starve for talent in every discipline for which they seek someone.  At the same time, they continue to do the same things over and over hoping for better results which will not come.

To add insult to injury, the current employment situation will be with us at least until the end of the decade.  If the economy moves ahead at all it will only increase the severity of the problem.

What are the solutions to this problem?  There are several areas that need to be addressed.

Companies are going to have to partner with a search firm that:

·         Understands the problem as explained above.

·         Knows how to help hiring managers articulate what is needed qualification wise that goes far beyond a job description covering all three dimensions of a position.

·         Knows how to find, attract, conduct the proper due diligence with candidates and present only 2-3 qualified people to a company, one of which will be hired 

In order to partner with the right firm, they will also have to:

·         Learn how to find the right partner by learning what an effective firm provides and how it provides it

·         Move away from the notion that all firms are transaction oriented

·         Stop believing more recruiters on a search are better when they all practice the same failed processes 

Companies have to move in a direction of becoming a recruiting organization.  What that means is they become attractive to talent to the point that talent seeks out the company.  It also means when the right candidate is available, how to react quickly and effectively so they remain attracted to that company and that position rather than the other companies that will compete for them.

If a company has internal recruiters, they have to trained not with the latest technology, how to write a great job posting or how to search databases for potential candidates.  They have to be trained with the solid fundamentals that make them effective, creating the right results.

All three of these solutions are important for companies to survive this hiring environment and to take advantage of the disruptive opportunities that have been created within their markets and industries.  With all the other disruptions that exist or may come along; not having the right talent and not being able to find the talent needed should not be on the list.

What Has Happened?

If you have read any of our blog articles you most likely are painfully aware of our consistent effort to alert company leaders and hiring managers that talent is going to become scarce. Well, it has happened.

Because we talk with companies on a daily basis in numbers, we gain considerable insight about what companies are experiencing. Most recently we have been hearing the following from company leaders, hiring managers and even some HR professionals:

• “We can’t find a ___ (fill in the blank) __ to save our life.”

• “We have been looking for a __ (fill in the blank) __ for __ (fill in the number of months___.”

• “We get a lot of responses to our job postings but no qualified candidates.”

That is just a sample.  Now the majority of company leaders are starting to see and hear internally that they are struggling to find the talent they need. What has happened?

For a long time, company leaders would respond that they are not having any problems or they only had a couple of positions with which they were challenged. When the same company leaders asked why we wanted to speak with them (a standard question because most mistakenly think that Human Resources are the people with whom we should speak). Our response is that while they may be unaware and the subject has not been brought to them it eventually will land on their desk that the company is struggling to find the talent they need. Of course when something gets elevated to that level it is because it is that important.

Most company leaders have been willing to listen and discuss as they want to head off a problem if possible so they are not so far behind with a solution that they cannot overcome it.

Now it seems the problem is out in the open. The majority of companies are recognizing the talent pool they have been used to working with for finding talent is virtually non-existent. In addition, they slowly are recognizing that their practices to find talent are not succeeding. Practices include:

• Job postings
• Networking within their industry
• Networking within their professional associations
• Internal efforts to recruit
• Search firms
• LinkedIn
• All other social media
• Electronic recruiting

Most of these are failing or are inconsistent at best. Let’s see why.

• Job postings – Since there are approximately only 1 million candidates for approximately 6 - 7.5 million open positions there are a lot of competitors. The fact of the matter is the talent needed is currently working not looking.

• Networking within an industry or professional association – Again, not that many are looking for a new position and few are unemployed.

• Internal efforts to recruit – They are typically seeking talent among the unemployed or electronic places the unemployed are found. They are ill-equipped to seek talent within other companies.

• Search firms – almost 90 percent of recruiters have left the industry through the recession. Most that remain seek candidates the same place their clients seek them.

• LinkedIn and social media – Mostly filled with unemployed and those employed have not updated their information and it is unproductive.

• E-recruiting – Because technology is advancing at the speed of light everyone wants to have the latest, sexiest software so they can be in vogue. For some applications that is admirable and highly productive. In the case of talent acquisition, it is not productive. People still respond best to other people.

So what is a company to do? The answer is not too complex but it takes bold company leaders to insist their organization change in order to continue to be successful. Here are some helpful suggestions.

Become a recruiting organization, stop being a hiring entity. Learn how to attract people in order to not struggle so hard to find what is needed. There are specific ways to make that change but it has to start with company leaders wanting to change.

If your company has internal recruiters get sound training for them to become effective recruiters in this hiring environment that will be with us until the end of the decade.

Partner with a search firm that:

1. Understands what is preventing you from achieving your goals and objectives

2. Understands the hiring environment.

3. Has a history of recruiting those (the employed) who are already doing what you need done.

4. That can represent your company in an accurate, honest, positive manner to attract potential candidates once they are found.

5. Can conduct the proper due diligence in order to verify and confirm the individual is qualified.

6. That does all the work and only presents 2-3 candidates but they are all qualified.

7. Prepares everyone for a productive meeting so your company identifies the one that is the best fit for your organization.

8. Guides the offer process so it minimizes the “bidding” process because most candidates will have multiple offers.

9. Continues to provide support after the acceptance of the offer for an effective start.

All three of these may appear to be common sense and they are. However, most organizations seem to be determined to continue to do the same things over and over expecting different results. In other areas of organizations that mentality is not acceptable and it is puzzling why it is acceptable in talent acquisition.

There is a real effect to this mindset and we are starting to see the effects:

• New product development is slow or stops

• Initiatives are delayed or cancelled

• Sales territories are left to competitors

• The cost of recruiting mounts as time goes on without results

• When a candidate is hired the average tenure today is only 14 months or less. A new search is required initiating the rise in costs again.

• Shareholders start to ask questions and get worried

• Financial goals are missed

• Opportunities are missed

• Misleading rumors can spread within an industry

• Morale can plummet within an organization due to the additional work load and concern about the welfare of jobs.

I am sure there are many more. We have been solving these types of problems for clients for a combined 50 years. Please feel free to contact us to discuss your particular situation and solutions that will benefit your organization.

Contact us at 919-435-6873
Kvn.sutton@gmail.com

Job Openings, Job Creation, Employers and Job Seekers - What Do They Have in Common?

The morning headlines today stated that Wall Street numbers fell on the most recent job data. Apparently what made that news worthy is that instead of the forecasted 125,000 jobs that were supposed to be added, there were only 96,000. So without the addition of 30,000 more jobs it rocked the markets some.

While everyone’s eye (at least Wall Street’s) is on additional jobs, what about all the existing jobs for which companies cannot find the right people? That is really more news worthy and it has much more impact on employers, job seekers and the economy.

Sure, job creation is very important. But it is immediately more important for companies that are struggling mightily to find the right qualified people for their current open positions. The question is why are open positions such a problem now?

A company that cannot fill its critical positions (you define critical position because it now has a very broad definition) is going to struggle either now or at some point between now and the end of the decade in achieving its goals and objectives.

• For a company not to meet its financial goals whether private or public creates uncertainty, concern, and a host of other issues.

• For a company not to be able to develop new products to stay ahead or keep up with its competition puts them at risk for losing ground.

• When initiatives are delayed or cancelled, the advantages they were to bring don’t happen. It may mean more costs, continued waste or some other negative position. Even if maintaining status quo is not detrimental, whose business can afford not to move forward today?

• What about the sales territory that needs a strong sales person to bring in new or more business? Who can afford not to take advantage of opportunity?

These situations and more are happening every day. They are happening more frequently than in past times. The reason is stated above; companies cannot find the right people for open positions.

Let’s review the reasons why again. From a purely numerical standpoint:

• There are approximately 6-7.5 million open professional positions in the United States. That is made up of advertised positions and unadvertised positions.

• The available talent pool of unemployed individuals 25 years old and older with a four-year degree or greater (professionals) is only 1.9 million. We are now where the Department of Labor was predicting a number of years ago, in a severe talent shortage.

• Traditionally a little over half of the unemployed are not looking for employment so that number can conservatively be 950,000 people available for 6-7.5 million open professional positions.

• The talent needed for employers is not going to come from there. It will come from other companies where the needed talent resides.

• Most companies are ill-equipped to find, attract and gain that talent.

Now let’s consider the job seeker. Those that are unemployed and seeking a job whether a professional, paraprofessional, skilled labor or trade, are equally ill-equipped to find a sustainable job.

Their practice is to create a resume, send a resume and wait for a response. That has never been a very good practice and now it is a broken practice. Just ask someone who is unemployed how many resumes they have sent, how many responses they have had and how many offers they have had. I will warn you to be prepared to duck because there are millions of frustrated job seekers who are very unsatisfied with their results.

The practice described above is passive, puts the employer in charge of an individual’s job search and is ineffective. So what do they need to do?

They have to follow sound fundamental practices that are proactive, productive and place the job seeker in charge of his or her job search. It is a series of steps executing the skills required. Each step builds upon the other and each produces progress.

If you are an employer struggling and need help, please feel free to contact us and we can provide relief in several different methods. The contact information is on the side of this blog site.

If you are a job seeker, you can go to www.CareerTalkGuys.com and learn more about why your practice is not creating the success you want and what will.

Where and How Will Your Company Find Qualified Candidates? Or, I Have to Look Where and Do What? Part One

I speak on a daily basis to company leaders.  I always find it interesting that some albeit few, try to shoo me away by sending me to their HR department.  I appreciate that in their particular organization they assume that recruiting lies with HR.  It tells me the organization is only interested in filling a position with someone, anyone who remotely looks like the position they have to fill and they don't really understand how they actually achieve their objectives and goals.   

On the other hand, most company leaders are eager to speak with me.  In conversation it becomes very clear they recognize that the achievement of the goals, objectives, initiatives, opportunities, etc., is dependent on having all the right people.  They recognize all the right people contribute their skills, abilities, accomplishments, experiences and personal characteristics that match the organization to achieving what is needed.

Frankly, I am most interested in those conversations about the achievement of their objectives and goals, what is thwarting their achievement and what they see as needs to achieving those objectives and goals.  After all, that is what the Sutton Group does.  It helps organizations achieve their objectives and goals, whatever they may be, by providing the right solution to the problem of a vacant position.

It is like the analogy of the drill bit versus the hole.  If you don't know the story, I am happy to share it as it is a perfect analogy for real recruiting versus what most assume is recruiting.  

But, let's look at what one of the biggest stumbling blocks for companies today towards the achievement of their objectives and goals.  Those who like numbers will relate well to this. 

Currently there are approximately 3.4 million open professional positions in the US, did you know that? Those are advertised positions and it can be found in the Bureau of Labor Statistics information. In total, advertised and unadvertised, there are somewhere between 6-8 million open professional positions.

The unemployment rate for professionals (25 years old and older with a four year degree or greater) is only 4.0 percent, approximately 1.9 million individuals, were you aware of that? Out of the 1.9 million, half or more is not looking for employment leaving a potential talent pool of only 950,000 or less for millions of open positions as most companies and search firms look at it.
 
The lack of the right people does not not exclude companies from having to meet objectives and goals even if their goals are to remain in the status quo.  So it poses the question, where do you think most of the candidates will come from for the open positions?  Where will the best ones come from?  If you don't think this will impact your company, your company is either shrinking and laying off people or you have a workforce that will not quit, leave for another position, or retire at least until the end of the decade. 

If you said your company will have to find those who are already doing that job for another company, you are correct. 

Are you going to stick to your guns and continue to advertise for your open positions even though the bulk of the talent is not looking at job postings because they are busy at work?  The vast majority of those who do respond to the job postings are not qualified for the position.

Are you going to seek candidates through social media even though it is common knowledge that most passive candidates have withdrawn from social media?  Those still involved are typically part of that 950,000 that are not intending on truly seeking employment.

Are you going to employ search firms that gravitate to job boards, social media and data bases hoping someone will show up that sort of looks like who you want?

How are you going to compete not only for the talent you require, but for business in general with those companies that are aggressively employing means to find the right people?  They may even be finding your best people.

As if you don't have enough challenges with the world debt crisis, a shaky economy, an uncertain election, competition, etc, now you have to transform your company into a recruiting company rather than a hiring company that before was comfortable and seemed to work, sometimes.  You also have to find the right resources that can do what you are unable to do.  And, are you prepared to continue to compete successfully for the right talent until the end of the decade?
Is your company in position to compete successfully for those who are currently working?  Remember most are not seeking a new position.  How will you find them?  How will you attract them, with higher compensation or better "perks".  That only goes so far and you end up driving up overhead to where it becomes its own problem.  The fact is that 9 out of 10 people either accept an offer or decline an offer because of something else besides compensation.  Does your company know how to work with that?

Is your company prepared to deal consistently with candidates who receive 2,3,4 and maybe 5 offers from other companies competing for them?  It is common place today.  Even if they were not looking before you may have found them, once known they are looking other companies swoop down and join the competition.   

Can all your hiring managers, your HR department and you express well why your company is a great company?  Why the work is a fulfilling challenge?  Can anyone in your organization reach into an organization find the right person and articulate a truthful vision of opportunity that might interest someone who before they were contacted had no plans on changing employers?

This gives you some serious questions to think about.  Part Two will examine what some of the potential solutions are and what will actually work.    

How is the War for Talent Progressing - An Update

Barely over two years ago I posted an article here about the approaching talent war called, The Approaching Talent War. I explained what we saw from the reports from the Bureau of Labor Statistics, the Department of Labor and from the daily conversations we have with company leaders and their hiring managers as well as other information.

It has been two years since and I thought it would be interesting to see where all of this has gone and if there have been any other influences to what we first stated.

So, where are we today? It appears that the war has advanced even in this shaky economy. There are companies that are doing well and cannot find the right talent for their critical positions. There are companies that are not doing so well that are in the same situation when they have to hire someone.

• Companies are still telling us they receive 400-500 resumes for a single job posting and at the same time do not find a qualified person within them.

• Companies are hiring marginal people because those they find through their standard practices are just that, marginal and they feel that is the best they can do.

• Some companies are rationalizing that they will do without until they think more people they want are available.

• Some companies are simply not acknowledging there is a problem. It may not have affected them yet or they are in denial. It appears there are some of both.

• There are some companies, although they are in a minority, who recognize they cannot find the individuals they need and immediately seek help, find who they need and continue forward.

• Finally, there are even fewer companies that recognize what has happened and have changed how they attract talent and retain them, transforming their company.

By the end or 2013 it is estimated 50 million Baby Boomers will have retired. That is more than were born in the entire GenX generation (38 million).

Unemployment for those that are 25 years old and older with a four-year degree or greater was only 4.1 percent at the end of June, 2012. It will continue to go lower. Keep in mind that the majority of the 4.1 percent is not looking for a job for some reason.

The hiring environment that is with us now will be with us until the end of the decade at least. So, for the next 8 years companies will have to take a different approach if they expect to maintain their current position or if they want to move forward with initiatives, projects, opportunities, etc.

To learn what the possibilities are to address this successfully, please contact us at 919-435-6873 or kvn.sutton@gmail.com.